Mike Sacopulos speaks with Jordan Grumet, MD, associate medical director of Unity Hospice, podcaster, and author of The Purpose Code. Grumet shares his deeply personal journey from burning out as an internal medicine physician to finding fulfillment in hospice care, and explains how his work with dying patients has revealed profound lessons about living with purpose.

Most people get purpose wrong, Grumet argues. Rather than being your "why" in life — some grand, audacious mission — purpose is simply the actions you take in the present and future that light you up. This reframe makes purpose abundant rather than anxiety-inducing.

Working with dying patients has taught Grumet that the key question to ask yourself is: "If I were on my deathbed tomorrow, what would I regret never having the energy, courage, or time to do?" The answers reveal your true purpose anchors.

"You don't find your purpose. You build or create it."

Looking ahead, Grumet previews his upcoming AAPL book, The Healthcare Heist, which examines how third parties have leveraged the healthcare system and explores potential solutions.

Learn more about the American Association for Physician Leadership at www.physicianleaders.org.


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Finding Purpose: Dr. Jordan Grumet on Burnout, Meaning, and the Deathbed Test

Jordan Grumet, MD

Self-Management

Self-Awareness

Motivations and Thinking Style

Adaptability

What if healthcare’s greatest barrier is not funding, technology, or policy, but leaders’ lack of self-awareness?

In this episode of SoundPractice, host Mike Sacopulos talks with Jess Bunin, MD, MHPE, FACP, FCCM, CEC, a psychiatrist, author, and co-founder of All Levels Leadership, a consulting firm designed to revolutionize healthcare leadership training.

Dr. Bunin brings a perspective forged at West Point and through a military career that included deployment to Iraq, leadership as an ICU director and chief of critical care, and service as dean of community at the Uniformed Services University, the nation’s military medical school. She argues that healthcare’s deepest wounds are relational—and that healing them starts with leaders doing the hard work of understanding themselves.

Dr. Bunin discusses:

- Why physicians often overestimate their self-awareness, and what research reveals about the inverse relationship between confidence and competence.
- How struggling as a program director helped her distinguish between mentoring for her own success and mentoring around a resident’s needs.
- How today’s medical students and residents differ from those trained 15 years ago, and why digital communication, COVID, and political polarization have weakened the skills needed for productive disagreement.
- How patients have changed as well, and why declining doctor-patient trust and the rise of Dr. Google make emotional attunement essential.
- The CLEAR framework for civil discourse: Create psychological safety, Listen actively, Establish common ground, Adjust your thinking, and Respond skillfully.

Learn more about the American Association for Physician Leadership at www.physicianleaders.org


Leading with Clarity: Self-Awareness, Civil Discourse, and the Future of Healthcare Culture with Dr. Jessica Bunin

Jessica Bunin, MD, MHPE, FACP, FCCM, CEC

Humility

Self-Control

Lyndsay Hoy, MD, was just beginning her first week of anesthesia residency at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania when she was received a life-altering diagnosis: lymphangioleiomyomatosis (LAM), a rare and progressive lung disease that predominantly affects women of childbearing age. Diagnosed within 36 hours of experiencing symptoms, Hoy embarked on a journey defined by the dual roles of clinician and patient — a dynamic that profoundly influenced every aspect of her life. From her marriage to fellow physician Vincent Hoy, to her decision to pursue IVF and embryo preservation, to her advocacy for rare disease patients, and her leadership as Chief Mission Officer of The LAM Foundation, her experiences have shaped her path and purpose.

In this episode, Hoy speaks with host Mike Sacopulos about the challenges of managing an invisible illness while navigating a demanding clinical career and the structural inequities that determine who gets diagnosed and treated for rare diseases. She also reflects on a chapter she co-authored with her husband for AAPL's recent book on dual-physician marriage.

Learn more about the American Association for Physician Leadership at www.physicianleaders.org.


A Physician, a Rare Disease, and the Art of Being Present with Dr. Lyndsay Hoy

Lyndsay Hoy, MD

Comfort with Visibility

What happens when a physician becomes a patient — and discovers that medicine can heal the body but leave the person behind? In this episode of SoundPractice, host Mike Sacopulos sits down with Rana Awdish, MD, medical director of care experience at Henry Ford Health and bestselling author of In Shock: My Journey from Death to Recovery and the Redemptive Power of Hope.

Awdish's path to physician leadership is unlike most. As a pulmonary and critical care fellow at Henry Ford, she nearly died — and that experience cracked open a new understanding of what physicians actually need to do their jobs well. She began building a communications curriculum, quietly and without a formal title, until the work proved so effective that the institution asked her to lead it systemwide. Today she oversees care experience, runs the Pulmonary Hypertension Program, and helps shape Henry Ford's physician onboarding and Leadership Institute.

The conversation is equal parts practical and profound. Awdish describes Henry Ford's "senior peer partner" model — a social mentoring program that pairs new hires with seasoned clinicians not to teach clinical skills but to transmit culture. 

And she shares what comes next. Her forthcoming book, Aftershock: Learning to Reinhabit My Body After Illness, goes deeper than In Shock did, tracing a second journey — through somatic healing, art, and what she calls "re-embodiment" — that ultimately led her to discover her own undetected cancer. The book is a challenge to medicine's assumptions about where healing begins and ends.

Learn more about the American Association for Physician Leadership at www.physicianleaders.org.


Healing from the Inside Out: How Medicine Must Learn to Share Its Power with Dr. Rana Awdish

Rana Awdish, MD

Professional Capabilities

Influence

Quality and Risk

Quality Improvement

What happens when the art of medicine collides with the rise of clinical algorithms, electronic health records, and artificial intelligence? In this episode of SoundPractice, host Mike Sacopulos speaks with Devjit Roy, MD, MAS, MSPC, CPE, from Nathan Littauer Hospital in rural New York — about his book, Between Heartbeats and Algorithms: Reclaiming What Matters in Healthcare. 

Roy explains how the book grew from journals he kept while working on the front lines of a COVID surge hospital, where he recorded patient stories as a way of processing the trauma. Years later, those stories became the foundation for a call to action: Physicians must step into leadership to ensure that technology serves medicine — not the other way around.

He also serves as medical director of the hospital's nursing home, board member for Mountain Valley Hospice, and co-president of a regional joint venture focused on preserving specialty care. He continues to practice as a hospitalist and palliative care physician.

Learn more about the American Association for Physician Leadership at www.physicianleaders.org.


Between Heartbeats and Algorithms: Reclaiming What Matters in Healthcare with Dr. Devjit Roy

Devjit Roy, MD, CPE

Strategy and Innovation

Environmental Influences

Few physicians ever experience healthcare from the perspective of a health plan, but Jacob Asher, MD, is an exception. A former ENT surgeon with Kaiser Permanente, Asher shifted gears in 2008 to pursue a career in commercial health plan management. Over the next 14 years, he served as California Commercial Market Medical Director for Anthem Blue Cross, Cigna, and UnitedHealthcare. Today, he shares his expertise by mentoring students in Stanford University's Master’s Program in Medical Informatics.

In this conversation with host Michael Sacopulos, Asher pulls back the curtain on commercial insurance — from how contracts are structured, to who holds pricing power, why behavioral health has been siloed, and what AI might finally be able to fix in a system long defined by friction and misaligned incentives. Asher also shares how serving on Kaiser Permanente’s Medical Group Board of Directors helped prompt his move from surgery into health plan leadership. He also discusses the role of AAPL (then ACPE) in preparing physicians for non-clinical career paths.

Learn more about the American Association for Physician Leadership at www.physicianleaders.org.


The Circle of Money: What Physicians Need to Know About Health Plan Contracting with Dr. Jacob Asher

Jacob Asher, MD

Finance

Payment Models

Economics

Financial Management

What does it take to build a culture of ethics inside a health system — and what happens when leaders lack the courage to defend it? 
In this episode of SoundPractice, host Mike Sacopulos sits down with Arthur Caplan, PhD, one of the world's foremost bioethicists and the founding head of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Grossman School of Medicine's Department of Population Health.

Dr. Caplan traces his path into bioethics from a childhood hospitalization for polio to graduate training at Columbia, where he witnessed firsthand the ethical gaps in medicine's early encounters with IVF, informed consent, and research oversight. That experience shaped a career devoted not just to theorizing about ethics, but to solving real problems in real institutions.

In this wide-ranging conversation, Dr. Caplan and Mike Sacopulos explore:

- What an effective ethics infrastructure looks like 
- The defining bioethical challenges of the next decade 
- Compassionate use and unproven therapies 
- Misinformation and informed consent 
- Rationing and equity 
- Bioethics training for the next generation 

Learn more about the American Association for Physician Leadership.


Finding Purpose: Dr. Jordan Grumet on Burnout, Meaning, and the Deathbed Test

RECENT EPISODES

Leading with Clarity: Self-Awareness, Civil Discourse, and the Future of Healthcare Culture with Dr. Jessica Bunin

A Physician, a Rare Disease, and the Art of Being Present with Dr. Lyndsay Hoy

Healing from the Inside Out: How Medicine Must Learn to Share Its Power with Dr. Rana Awdish

Between Heartbeats and Algorithms: Reclaiming What Matters in Healthcare with Dr. Devjit Roy

The Circle of Money: What Physicians Need to Know About Health Plan Contracting with Dr. Jacob Asher

Ethics at the Edge: Bioethics, AI, and the Courage to Lead with Arthur Caplan, PhD

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